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Windows Installer Chat Transcript

This is a log of the chat as it happended. It is not an official transcript. Some time after the chat Microsoft usually posts an official transcript that is edited for clarity and amended to address questions that couldn't be answered during the chat.

WWW Official Chat Transcripts

Using the Windows Installer with the Driver Install Frameworks Tools (DIFXApp)

Description:
You ask - we answer. In the June Windows Installer chat, experts from the Windows Installer and the Driver Install Frameworks teams at Microsoft will sit down at their keyboards and answer your questions about installing drivers with the Windows Installer.
Type:
Microsoft Chat (June 28, 2005)

MSDN Chat Experts

This is the content of the upper window, where Microsoft experts answer the questions.

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Welcome to today's chat! The topic is "Using the Windows Installer with the Driver Install Frameworks Tools (DIFXApp)."

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Before we begin, I would like to begin by posting the chat rules and instructions for customers:

1. This chat will last for one hour. During this hour, our Experts will respond to as many questions as they can. Please understand that there are some questions we cannot respond to due to lack of information or because the information is not yet public.
2. We encourage you to submit questions for our Experts. To do so, type your questions in the send box, select the Submit a Question radio button and click SEND. Questions sent directly to the Guest Chat room will not be answered by the Experts, but we encourage other community members to assist.
3. We ask that you stay on topic for the duration of the chat. This helps the Guests and Experts follow the conversation more easily. We invite you to ask off topic questions after this chat is over, but not during.
4. Please only submit your question once. Submitting your question more than once is against the Chat Code of Conduct.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert): Hi, my name is Erik and I work on the DIFX Tools team!

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): 5. Please abide by the Chat Code of Conduct.

We are pleased to welcome our Experts for today’s chat. I will have them introduce themselves now.


MS_JMarusak (Expert): My name is Joe Marusak. I am the partner development program manager for the Device Installation and Management team at Microsoft.


KenWong_MSFT (Expert): Hi my name is Ken and I am a tester on the Windows Installer Team.

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Hi, my name is Tyler Robinson and I am a program Manager on the Windows Installer team.

Robert [MSFT] (Expert): Hello, I'm Robert Flaming, PM on Windows Installer and WiX Dark Dev

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert): Hi, this is Abhishek - also from the difx tools team at MS

Carolyn_MS (Expert): Hi I'm Carolyn Napier, the development lead for Windows Installer. Looking forward to chatting with you all today.


Eugen_MSFT (Expert): Hello. I am (obviously) Eugen and I am a developer in Windows Installer.

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Let’s begin the chat. We welcome you to begin submitting your questions for our Experts. If you have attended previous chats, you may be accustomed to prefacing your question with a Q:, there is no need to do that any longer. Our new chat system will automatically preface your question with a Q:

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Just a reminder - please ask your questions by hitting the question radio button.

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Questions asked in the guest chat might not get answered.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
A: Jerome, There is a legacy mode switch in the current release of the DIFx tools which turns off signature checking in the tools. This does not change the digital signature behavior of the OS. It simply turns off the tools signature tech. You can find details in the whitepaper posted at: <http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/driver/install/DIFxtls.mspx>>

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: how do you use DIFX to install an unsigned driver in WinXP and above?

A: Please note that we an issue with the legacy switch in the XML file in version 2.0.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: I am new in this busines where can I start and where can I down the requred programs?

A: we can put you in touch with the printer team for this. please contact us at difxbeta@microsoft.com

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: Can it be used in DIFXApi as well?

A: Jerome, Yes! It works with the API as well as DPInst and DIFxAPP.

Robert [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Robert, please couple of words - how WiX is applicable to DifX and drivers...

A: DiFX support has been in the WiX tool set for some time though I can't say exactly when it was added.

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: We have an unsigned driver for a printer under development. Is it at all possible to install the driver from the Add Printer Wizard in such a way that the Found New Hardware wizard stops popping up every time I plug in the printer?

A: Unfortunately, this question is off-topic for today's chat.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: We have an unsigned driver for a printer under development. Is it at all possible to install the driver from the Add Printer Wizard in such a way that the Found New Hardware wizard stops popping up every time I plug in the printer?

A: i can put you in touch with printer team (please contact difxbeta@microsoft.com)

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Thank you

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: I am new in this busines where can I start and where can I down the requred programs?

A: Mans, please take a look at the documents found at this URL. <http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/driver/install/DIFxtls.mspx>>

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: what is the case for driver under in x64?

A: Mans,

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: WHQL

A: stands for windows hardware quality labs, the microsoft logo signature for drivers.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
A: The 2.0 release of the DIFx tools support x86, IA64, and x64 architectures.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: Where can we find device status messages definitions. DIFx tools wizard shows device status as 'ready to use' and 'Device Updated'.

A: are you referring to the status messages in the DPInst wizard finish page? Those aren't defined anywhere. What exactly would you like to know?

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Hello everyone and welcome to today's chat! This is just a reminder that todays topic is using the Driver Install Frameworks (DifxApp) with the Windows Installer. Please ask the experts your questions by hitting the ask a question radio button.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: Does DiFx remove and reenumerate of existing devices as part of its install, or simply an update using the UpdateDevicesForPlugAndPlay API? We have discovered that with some USB devices, its helps to remove preexisting devices before updating/installing.

A: we use updatedriverforplugandplaydevices. if you want different behavior please send feature request to difxbeta@microsoft.com

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: Does this means that the instalation program that I will write with DIFx could be used to install bith 32 bit driver and 64 bit driver under x64?

A: You will have to create 2 different installers. One targeting the 32 bit OS, the other targeting the 64 bit OS.

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: I'm responsible for developing the corporate images for the company I work at. Will this topic be relevant, or is it for Driver developers?

A: This chat is for users of the Windows Installer and/or Driver Install Frameworks technologies. So, software installation developers and driver installation developers.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: Cant get much info from Failed or ready to use or device updated status messages.

A: Ready to use: the driver was copied to the machine. When you plug in your device, the driver will be found by the OS and installed.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: Cant get much info from Failed or ready to use or device updated status messages.

A: Device Update means: one or more devices were updated with a new driver by DPInst.

Robert [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Robert, please couple of words - how WiX is applicable to DifX and drivers...

A: Update on the integration date: Fall of 2004 was the initial checkin for DifX support in WiX

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: What is the correct way to install with DIFXApi if the device is not enumerated (the "other" device is deleted from Device Manager)

A: if the device is not present, difx tools can still stage the driver on the machine. the next time the device shows up, windows will automatically install it (assuming it is the best -ranked driver that windows can find)

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: Cant get much info from Failed or ready to use or device updated status messages.

A: We will try to make a better job of documenting or explaining the status. Thanks for the feedback.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: Does DiFX copy drivers to a driver store? We currently precopy our drivers to a location in CommonFiles. and then use SetupCopyOEMInf to register them with the system (after removing prexisting devices). If so, where is the driver store?

A: difx copies drivers to the driver store. the location of the driver store is an implementation detail of the difx tools and we cannot guarantee a location. currently it is under windows\system32\drvstore, but again, we can't guarantee that it will stay there

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: but the source code for both 64 bit instalation and 32 bit instalation is the same?

A: at some point the source code will have to be different. 64 bit driver have to be installed by 64 bit code. 32 bit drivers by 32 bit code. Once you detect on what system you are running, you will have to create a process running either 32 or 64 bit code.

Robert [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: where can I find some tutorial-like info on wix and difx for a newb

A: http://wix.sourceforge.net/tutorial

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: We see DIFx tools installed to Program Files (x86)\Driver Installation Tools 2.0\ folder on amd 64 systems. Are these 64 bit tools. Will it take care of installing both 64 bit and 32 bit components.

A: It will only install 64 bit components. To install 32 bit components you will have to run the 32 bit version. To target both systems at the same time, you will have run some code before that decides which of the 2 installers to call. Drivers have to be targeted to underlying platform.

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: when i build a localized CE image, say Japanese, i wanted to have IE in Japanese as well. can i get fully Japanse-localized IE from MSFT?

A: Unfortunately, this question is off-topic for today's chat.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: MD_JMarusak, should a reboot prompt be presented to in this case to aalow the PNP Manager to install the device when the system comes back?

A: windows will present a reboot prompt if it finds that one is necessary. the difx tools merely take this as a return code from windows and present a reboot prompt if needed.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: DIFx documentation doesn’t discuss about coinstallers and class installers. Where can we get information about these.

A: The DDK discusses those topics. Search for "Toaster" sample, which shows how to create a class installer and a co-installer.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: Missing samples discussing multiple WHQL class device scenarios (like system class and multifunction class drivers) in DIFX samples. Can Window Installer help in this aspect. Whats the advantage of Windows Installer on top of DIFx tools.

A: samples for specific classes are available in the DDK. difx samples are just general install-related samples

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: in any of the services properties when I click on "Dependencies" I get an error. "Win32: Access is Denied" I am logged in as domain admin. My domain individual account is set assigned locally with administrtive rights. It is a member of the domain.

A: Can you please elaborate on your question? It is regarding the Windows Installer or Driver Install Frameworks?

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Hello everyone and welcome to today's chat! This is just a reminder that todays topic is using the Driver Install Frameworks (DifxApp) with the Windows Installer. Please ask the experts your questions by hitting the ask a question radio button.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: is there any document or sample on how to develop 32bit and 64 bit compatible installers similar to the ones that you mentioned here?

A: could you resend that question to difxbeta@microsoft.com. We have some documentation but right now I don't remember were you could get it.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: Does the Longhorn installation requirements that DIFX also apply to CoInstallers?

A: At this point there is not a requirement to use DIFx tools for installation on Windows Longhorn. It is a recommended practice however.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: How to specify the inf file order. DIFx tools installs inf files in alphabetical order

A: are you asking about difxapp? if so, then the MsiDriverPackages table allows you to specify sequence numbers for install.

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: Tyler, no it isn't. I'm working on an xp pro box and this is the closest thing to help I could find in real time basis. Hope off tipic isn't a huge issue.

A: Unfortunately, we don't have an expert on-hand who can answer your question.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: We are not looking for "create a class installer and a co-installer" information. We have this. We are looking for installation aspect of coinstallers. Specifically in a multiple device scenario, when to install the coinstaller.

A: We currently don't have a DIFx specific solution for the problem you mention. Please send details of your scenario to DIFxBeta@Microsoft.com to see if we can make a recommendation based upon the details of your scenario.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: Can I merge several driver components into one MSI and specify install order?

A: yes. make each driver a seaprate component. create an entry for each component in msidriverpackages table. and specify install order via Sequence coulumn on MsiDriverPackages table.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: I am using IS 10.5 now, Is DIFX is as simple as IS?

A: If your target in IS is MSI based, the Device Driver Wizard will use DIFxAPP to install device drivers. InstallShield has been a partner with the DIFx team since the IS 10.0 release.

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Hello everyone and welcome to today's chat! This is just a reminder that todays topic is using the Driver Install Frameworks (DifxApp) with the Windows Installer. Please ask the experts your questions by hitting the ask a question radio button.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: Do you know if I can use IS 10.5 to install win X64 drivers and application on a 64 bit system?

A: Regrettably, 10.5 includes our 1.1 release of the tools. InstallShields website has pointer on how to update InstallShield to use the 2.0 release.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: Are there any plans to add support in DiFX XML files to launch additional packages beyond what maybe covered in the INF? (Example, install a hotfix as part of a driver install)

A: we don't have any plans on this right now, but we could consider it for the next version. What exactly is your scenario?

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: is there any document or sample on how to develop 32bit and 64 bit compatible installers similar to the ones that you mentioned here?

A: I am not sure what is the best route for you regarding InstallShield updates. They do support updating the DIFx components to the latest release, but I am sure they offer a great deal of value in their upgrades beyond DIFx tools support.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: I noticed when I call into DriverPackageInstall() when a package contaning a dummy CAT file, the installation fails. But then I remove the CatalogFile= line in the INF in works. Does this mean I have to create to different packages for Win2K and WinXP?

A: The behaviour should be the same on 2K and XP. The CAT file contains the signature for the package. If you use a dummy CAT file it shouldn't work on either system. Better to comment it out and use the legacy mode flag, which also should work on both systems.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: What does it mean? should I upgrade my IS or just update it?

A: A: I am not sure what is the best route for you regarding InstallShield updates. They do support updating the DIFx components to the latest release, but I am sure they offer a great deal of value in their upgrades beyond DIFx tools support.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
A: Question: Are any of the attendees currently shipping products that use the DIFx tools for installation?

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Hello everyone and welcome to today's chat! This is just a reminder that todays topic is using the Driver Install Frameworks (DifxApp) with the Windows Installer. Please ask the experts your questions by hitting the ask a question radio button.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: We are shipping using DIFx version 1.1.

A: Duane, Great to hear!

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: Our scenario involved adding this enumeration fix (windowsxp-kb838989-X86.exe). We currently can install all these in a parent installer... but moving this to the DPInst or using DIFx to install driver specific support would be better compartmentally.

A: Today you could use MSI or InstallShield with DIFxApp to accomplish this. For DPInst, we might consider this for the next version. A third option is to use the DIFXAPI, in which case you more flexibility, but you will have to implement a lot of code.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: We are looking into adding DIFx support in our next driver installer, but there are still a few issues we would like addressed. For example, is it possible to append to the Add/Remove entry if separate instances of DPInst is run sequentually?

A: What exactly would you like to do? Would you like to add drivers from the second DPInst run to an already existing Add/Remove Programs entry, so that they all get removed once the user removes the entry?

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: Can we rollback drivers with dpinst.

A: DPInst does not support rollback. The OS has a rollback API and you can do rollback through the Device Manager UI.

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Hello everyone and welcome to today's chat! This is just a reminder that todays topic is using the Driver Install Frameworks (DifxApp) with the Windows Installer. Please ask the experts your questions by hitting the ask a question radio button.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: Exactly. We heavily compartmentalize our drivers, and our driver installer handles this on release (which can have various driver combinations included). We noticed that DPInst will create its own Add/Remove entry per each run. One we had over 20 entries!

A: If you know in advance how you would like to group your drivers, you can do this today with version 2.0 of DPInst. For this, use the <group> feature in DPInst.xml. The whitepaper has more details. But if you want to update Add/Remove Programs on different runs of DPInst, that isn't supported today. In that case, you could use the DIFXAPI, which will give you all the flexibility, but also requires more coding work.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: Also, our releases support more then one device. So users had referenced in Add/Remove to devices they don't have.

A: Add\Remove programs entries represent the drivers and not the devices themselves. so this is by design. DPInst has an option to suppress these entries. Please see the whitepaper for details on how to do this.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
A: Question: Is there any interest in a DIFx based co-installer?

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: Are there any plans to change the Add/Remove behavior? In our case, we can install support for over 20 devices during one install... and the user's Add/Remove will be cluttered with many entries they don't need.

A: you can group them together with <group> in DPINST.XML and will have one Add/Remove Programs entry for all of them. Another alternative is to suppress the ARP entry. The whitepaper has more details on this.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: what is a co installer?

A: A co-installer is a DLL that can perform special actions at the end of an INF based installation. An example would be launching a setup.exe for an application your device requires. Like a control panel.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: so maybe I like a co installer

A: They are very popular.

Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Hello everyone and welcome to today's chat! This is just a reminder that todays topic is using the Driver Install Frameworks (DifxApp) with the Windows Installer. Please ask the experts your questions by hitting the ask a question radio button. (There are only 10 minutes left so get your questions in fast!)

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: is it a co instalation?

A: Mans, Is you board PnP compatible prior to the DSP being imaged? If so, this is exactly the type of scenario where you will want a co-installer to install the application that loads a DSP image to your board.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: so where can I find information on how to design a co installer?

A: There is quite a bit of information in the DDK.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: 1) Boot PC and PNP Manager detects new Hardware. 1) Leave Detect New Hardware box open and use DriverPackageInstall() to install device. 3) Detect New Hardware box closes, device is installed succesfully, but a Bubble Tip in the system tray saying failed

A: It seems this an interference between the Found New Hardware Wizard and your installer. Could you resend that question to difxbeta@microsoft.com, we can try to find more information on how to handle this case.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: We have DPInst and inf files at the root and sys files in i386,amd64 subfolders. Even after specifying subdirectory tag in dpinst.xml installation points to driver store folder. Any suggestions.

A: Unownedguy, We are not experts on WinCE. You are probably best served in a Windows CE developer forum.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: I wander why _com_error isn't defined in WinCE. I can see many forward declaration in the standard SDK as well in the PocketPC 2003 SDK but the class is never defined.

A: A: Unownedguy, We are not experts on WinCE. You are probably best served in a Windows CE developer forum.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: Also, does DIFx also handle cleanup of previous OEMxx.infs that may support the same device, from an older driver package?

A: No, it won't remove previous OEMxx.infs. The system will rank all the drivers and choose which to install. If the DIFX driver is better, it will get installed. Otherwise, another OEMxx.INF might get installed, if it is the better driver.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: Is there plans for a DIFX CoInstaller tool?

A: We are currently planning the next revision of the DIFx tools. A co-installer is one of the popular options.

Robert [MSFT] (Expert): Boilerplate Windows Installer References

Robert [MSFT] (Expert):
For further information on Windows Installer topic please visit the following:

Newsgroups: microsoft.public.platformsdk.msi
http://msdn.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.asp?url=/newsgroups/loadframes.asp?icp=msdn&slcid=us&newsgroup=microsoft.public.platformsdk.msi&frame=true

Microsoft Windows Installer Transcripts: Read the archive of past MSI chats. http://msdn.microsoft.com/chats/recent.asp#windows


MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: assume that you have a TI DSP board and after installing the driver, you need to install a software to compile codes for DSP board and then download and run it under compiler control for debusing of C software that goes to DSP processor

A: Mans, that makes sense and would work well. I wanted to clarify that the PCI board has PCI compat IDs, so PnP can take action when the board appears on the PCI bus.

Robert [MSFT] (Expert):
For further information on the Windows Installer topic please visit the following:

Website: Visit the Management Technologies Community Center site.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/community/centers/management/default.mspx

Website: Visit the Microsoft Windows Installer site.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/msi/setup/about_windows_installer.asp
Tyler [MSFT] (Moderator): Thank your for joing us in today's chat! The transcript from this chat will be posted in the next few days. The next chat has not been scheduled yet, but please look on http://msdn.microsoft.com/chats for the latest chat calendar.

Abhishek_and_Erik_MS (Expert):
Q: We have DPInst and inf files at the root and sys files in i386,amd64 subfolders. Even after specifying subdirectory tag in dpinst.xml installation points to driver store folder. Any suggestions.

A: i am not sure what you mean by ' ïnstallation points to driver store folder '. could you please elaborate?

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: is it a co instalation? or just two instalation?

A: Applications launched by a co-installer run in the context of the device installation. This is very important in Longhorn as we are moving to a model when most users will not be admins. You will want required software to install with your device driver so from first installation users have full functionality of your device.

MS_JMarusak (Expert):
Q: Robert would you please post the links so I can click on them and add them to my favorites?

A: I would like to thank all of you for attending today and providing such excellent feedback and questions. We are very interested in hearing about your successes and challenges of using the DIFx tools. Please send your feedback to DIFxBeta@Microsoft.com. We would love to hear how your customers are responding to DIFx based installs.

 

 

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